Lily McInerny, Iris Apatow, and Michelle J. Li on MAGAZINE by Kai Sun

There is an unwritten but widely understood rule of the New York creative underground – a space that I have spent the last few years trying to find my place within, like so many of you. I’ve found these words to ring true, and perhaps, in many ways, they are what brought me here in the first place:

Your career doesn’t begin with a job application; it begins with an act of blind faith.

My own path into the costume department of the upcoming indie feature Magazine started with just that: a cold Instagram DM to costume designer Michelle J. Li many years ago. At the time, she was honest about the constraints of the short film she was designing. There was no money on the project, but in exchange for labor, she generously offered her mentorship, advice, and an open door. That single ‘yes’ was the catalyst for what would become a close friendship, a professional partnership, and eventually, my role as her costume production assistant last summer on Alexandra (Ali) Pechman’s Magazine.

Having lived through the beautiful, electric grind of that film set, I wanted to bring together a few distinct minds who breathed life into the film’s visual and emotional landscape. 

I had the privilege of sitting down for three separate conversations with our captivating lead actress Lily McInerny (who plays Nora), the wonderfully chic Iris Apatow (who plays Daphne), and of course, the brilliant costume designer Michelle J. Li (who plays my dear friend, mentor, and fairy godmother in real life). 

Though we spoke individually, their insights into their creative processes, memories on set, and early-2010s nostalgia (when the movie is set) complement each other so naturally that they seem to speak to one another. The following has been trimmed extensively to save you from reading 100+ pages  (quite literally!) of unabashed yapping, hooting, and hollering over our love for this movie, our crafts, and everyone who worked on it. What emerged is a shared blueprint of what it means to look back on and recreate the recent past, make art on an indie level, and find community when resources are sacred.

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“Can you tell us a little bit about yourself for those who don’t have the privilege of knowing you?”

Lily McInerny: I was born and raised here in New York City. I always loved storytelling through making movies and putting on plays. My love for acting was really just born from this place of childhood play. That was how I really bonded with my friends growing up: Getting everyone together with a laptop camera, ‘Photobooth,’ and a dream. I've been lucky to translate that earliest passion and joy into a career I can make a living from. [...] My very first professional acting credit was a feature film called Palm Trees and Power Lines. And then, following that, I immediately got a small part on a TV series called Tell Me Lies that Iris is actually a part of as well! We never overlapped [...] Well, my character dies in episode one — spoiler alert — but she leaves a big splash. But it’s been so sweet to have that little commonality.

Iris Apatow: I'm Iris. I am 23, and I'm an actress – or trying to be – and I live in New York with my cat and my boyfriend. Magazine is just one of my favorite things I've ever done for many reasons. So I am super happy to chat with you about it!

Michelle J. Li: I am so excited and thankful to have the opportunity to speak on the other side of the table with you in this way, and honestly, there is no better person to interview me for this film than you. So, I am really pumped. But yes, for those of you who don't know me, I am a costume designer and multi-disciplinary artist working across commercials, television, film, and stage. And I'm the costume designer for Magazine; I’ll see you at the TIFF premiere in a few weeks!

“What initially drew you to this project?”

Lily: I actually met with Ali to discuss a separate project she was working on, but as we got talking, the subject of Magazine came up, and we realized just how closely we were aligned in terms of what we were really craving to see on screen these days. I loved the idea of making something nuanced, something very complex, and something that covers a lot of very tender, sometimes difficult subject matters, but using a lot of humor and levity and this sort of romantic-comedy-dramedy tone that I feel like lost popularity in a lot of contemporary movies. [...] We really bonded over an idea of telling a young adult story that doesn’t fall into such strict genre categories.

Iris: I was drawn to [Magazine] because I love any kind of story that has to do with women feeling seen. This was so exciting to read because of all the interesting dynamics in it and how specific the characters' interactions are. The writing is so smart, original, and relatable to any young woman growing up and trying to make it in New York. I think it's such an exciting world to enter [...] And the humor is so subtle and smart, and the way Ali directed it was so cool to watch. 

Michelle: Ali’s script and visual deck captivated me from the start, and from the beginning, it was clear to me that she had an incredibly succinct vision for the film. That is a crucial trait I look for in collaborating with first-time feature directors. From those materials, I felt compelled to take up the challenge of designing a “high-low” look for Magazine: styling and developing a visual language for this 2011 world that felt aspirational as well as quotidian.

“What was the biggest challenge you had to navigate in the process of making this movie?”

Lily: I think in any coming-of-age, which I would categorize Magazine under to a degree, the biggest challenge is creating a very specific and identifiable starting-off-point to kind of launch the process of self-discovery and self-actualization. It's a weird challenge to sort of create somebody who's grasping for an identity while still being a very specific, characterized, believable, nuanced individual at the start of that journey. I think that was the biggest challenge for me. 

Iris: It was very exciting getting to play a character that eccentric and getting to wear these fun costumes, and that was really hard for me because I'm not the best at just going full eccentric [...] but with the support of the whole team, the outfits definitely helped me get into character. I just had the best time, and I felt so confident, and that goes to you and the whole costume team!

Michelle: Creating an authentic and believable look that would make sense for our interns and the power editors they look up to. Because 2011 isn’t so far in the past, there are many fashion trends from that era we would now deem passé, even if they were period-accurate. Therefore, the design challenge comes in when I’m trying to walk that tightrope between nostalgia and cringe. I loved being able to explore and dissect how clothing is social capital within New York socialites and subcultures, because it meant that I was tasked with the reality of needing the real deal – because if you know, you know. We could’ve never pulled off the quality of Costume Design Magazine had without the incredible, generous help of fashion houses like Marc Jacobs, Tory Burch, Dauphinette, and brands like The RealReal, who lent their support when I needed it most.

“What came easiest or most naturally to you?”

Lily: Hmm. Oh, that's a fun question. I think what came easiest was my immediate love and affection for the rest of my castmates. I think Ali and everyone did such a fantastic job casting the ensemble, and my castmates did an incredible job personifying such specific roles. The dynamics between all of us cast members emerged so naturally and were such a stabilizing force for my character's development. That was one of my favorite parts of working on this – just how large and enmeshed all of the different characters are [...] That's another thing Ali was so adamant about wanting and holding firm on in this movie. Obviously, it's a lot more affordable to trim down a cast and create smaller worlds, but I think that scope and those relationships – like those web of characters – is so important to the film and one of my favorite parts of watching it as well as acting in it. 

Michelle: The research part came the most naturally to me because there was so much visual evidence from this time. I recalled styles from when I was a young adult, so there was a bit of sense memory, but it was around 2011 when we saw the beginnings of a shared consciousness of fashion through OOTD blogs, Tumblr, and Pinterest. This was also when we saw the height of fast fashion brands like Forever 21 knocking off runway looks to be sold en masse; this was a useful context in approaching the costume design. What trends are people wearing? What are the Pantone colors of the season? What are the popular prints and patterns of the era? And I know you, and I have spoken about it before too, Kai, but we're technically working with period, right? How period accurate is accurate enough for a modern, contemporary audience to feel like it is different than now versus, “Oh, this trend is so fugly that it's taking me out of the costume design.”

“Here’s a fun one: Can you describe your character using one 2011-era pop song?”

Lily: So hard to pick just one – a lot of Arctic Monkeys, Vampire Weekend, MGMT come to mind, but maybe "You're Not The One" by Sky Ferreira best captures her essence by the end of the film.

Iris: That's a good question. Well, I had a whole playlist. You know what? "Hong Kong Garden" was definitely my song for that [...]

“At Cold Worm, we are particularly drawn to indie filmmaking. I was wondering what specifically about indie filmmaking draws you to it or speaks to you.”

Lily: Totally. I love working small and really being able to bond with the crew and the cast. Even when resources are limited, I think the intimacy that an indie set provides is such a priceless experience. I also love the freedom that indie filmmaking provides. The risks people are able to take when really reporting only to themselves. There's a level of creative purity that I think is really irreplaceable and priceless. [...] And that's not to say that that can't exist in a more mainstream production. It's just a lot harder to protect and to preserve when big production studios get involved. [...] And for a very long time, it’s sort of all I ever knew. It's how I broke into this industry, and it's an environment that I feel like I thrive in. There are certain comforts you obviously compromise by having fewer resources, but I think the creative return is well worth it. 

Iris: I think Magazine was like such a collective push for everyone due to its indie nature. I think we created something really beautiful even with smaller resources. It really, truly was like a magical experience working with everyone on this. I'll really cherish the memories from that movie forever, and I'm excited for the screening.

Michelle: I think the beautiful part of indie filmmaking is about remembering that a lot of the individuals who you’re working with now on the ground level are going to one day be the peers you're standing next to at these award ceremonies, right? We're all kind of rising together at the same time and doing the scariest thing, which is betting on ourselves. The amount of soul that you have to put on the line in order to make a collective vision come true is not for the faint of heart. I also think that with indie filmmaking, because there are often fewer voices in the room, it translates into greater creative agency. I would say, like in so many parts, that is why people keep coming back to the beauty of independent film — because we don't have to necessarily answer to a boardroom of executives with ulterior motives who are approving every single color, every piece of decor… things like that. Don’t get me wrong, I do feel like indie filmmaking is really hard, but in the trade-off, you get to say what you want to say. And when it’s good, it’s freaking great.

“The movie touches on some issues that may feel particularly relevant to our Cold Worm readers, many of whom are like us: young 20-somethings in New York navigating these creative and social circles that can sometimes feel hierarchical and gatekept. Do you have any advice you'd like to share with our readers who may be trying to find their footing in these challenging, sometimes toxic, spaces?”

Lily: Yeah – don't be afraid to care and don't be afraid to be deeply passionate about whatever it is you're pursuing. I think that's one of my favorite themes in the film: this earnest conviction in whatever it is you're pursuing, and permission to just geek out over it. And just be obsessed, be fascinated, be unapologetically ambitious, and have desires for whatever really sparks your creativity. [...] And that’s something that I had to develop over time, but I think is such a strength, ultimately – just a lack of self-consciousness in caring as much as you do. 

Iris: Any advice? Hmm. You know what? It's hard for me to give advice to young people because I am also growing up and trying to figure it out, and I think all that we can do is help find/tell stories or make movies and art that makes people feel less alone. I think ultimately finding work that makes people feel seen and understood. And doing it with people you trust!

Michelle: There are so many people in NYC who are trying to walk the walk whether or not their shoes are even tied. Which is sometimes reassuring, because it means that we’re all just faking it until we make it. But it also means you’ll encounter some bad apples who are trying to schmooze their way to the top no matter the cost. So my advice is to sharpen your judgment of character, and if your intuition and gut are telling you something feels bad… it’s usually right. It’s corny, but being true to yourself and treating everyone with kindness is the only real piece of advice I can consistently give. If you make choices that lead to cycles of self-betrayal for the sake of clout, you’re gonna breed resentment that chips away at the parts that make you, you. Plus, I’ll see through it all. So remember who is in the room with you. Look to your left and to your right. The individuals who are going to take you far are already within reach, because they are your friends, your peers, your classmates, and especially the friends of a friend who you clicked with at that house party. Develop and invest in your community in a real way by showing up to things you actually care about, and not things you feel like you should care about just cause some popular person said so.

“Taking a bit of a pivot into my department now… How much does something like costume and fashion help you find your character and inspire you?”

Lily: Well, costume is usually one of the first entry points into a character for me… along with music and film and, to a degree, literature, especially for a project like this – I'll start reading books and articles, et cetera, that I think would inform the character. But as soon as I'll book a role, I'll already start the Pinterest board and start sort of shopping in character whenever I find myself out and about. I don't necessarily buy the clothes, but I'll go window shopping and start to embody them through dress. It's such a transformative element to the performance, and especially for a film like this, we had so much fun with the costumes. It's so funny to refer to it as a period piece […] I'm 27 and during 2011 to 2013, that was sort of just as I was starting to form my idea of ‘cool.’ So this was like peak style and aspirational dressing for me.

Iris: Yeah, I love fashion. I grew up taking fashion classes in school and getting obsessed with the Diane Vreeland documentary when I was younger. Costume has been a big part of my life for a long time. It is everything to me. I really do love it. Fashion is a big vehicle for Daphne. It's so important to her character. 

“In the reverse, how did working with the actors influence your design, Michelle?”

Michelle: I had such a fun and collaborative experience working with the cast of Magazine. In a fashion-forward kind of project like this, every actor having their own version of how to look is to be expected and welcomed. We spent a lot of time playing and throwing ideas around during the dozens of multi-hour fittings, but because the script and casting were superb, it was easy to understand who these characters were.

“What’s one 2011-era fashion trend you hope to see come back and one that you do not wish to see a revival of?”

Lily: Okay, these are amazing questions. My first impulse, like actually, just horrified me. My first impulse that I want to see come back, and I don't know where this came from – like a very deep voice within that is just like screaming out. I can't explain why: galaxy print. I think we can see galaxy print come back. [...] Peter Pan collars can stay in; I don't think they ever really left. And combat boots; I think combat boots should make a comeback as well. What can stay out is chevron. Cutouts can stay gone. I do not want to see shoulder cutouts. That might be a hot take [...] I think I'll stop at that. I feel like I'm gonna get heat for the galaxy print, but I stand on that. 

Iris: Orange lipstick. Don't bring it back. I don't think we should bring that back. I think we should bring back low-rise jeans and skinny jeans. And Ugg boots. And fur-lined coats!!! One hundred percent.

Michelle:  Ooh, that's a good question! I really love a lot of the out-there prints and patterns as well as the bright, bold colors of 2011. I also kind of feel like a lot of these styles are coming back. I think brands right now have gotten so much more playful in their usage of color, but please don't bring back the galaxy leggings or a chevron print. That can stay right where it is. No one needs to be wearing a chevron anymore.

[Editor’s Note: Kai thinks Lily and Michelle should work out their galaxy-print dispute on the remix of this article.] 

“What is one thing you are proudest of in regards to this movie?”

Michelle: The character that I had the most fun designing for was Daphne, being portrayed by Iris Apatow. We were really given the liberty as well as the encouragement to go all the way. Obviously, I can't go into more specifics, but I'm obsessed with her entire closet and feel so lucky to have been supported by wonderful designers who loaned me a lot of one-of-one pieces to make those looks happen.

“We're all super excited for the upcoming TIFF premiere and for the movie to finally reach audiences. Lastly, what's one thing you hope audiences experience or take away from the film?”

Lily: I am hopeful audiences will leave with a feel-good feeling. That they walk away feeling kind of hopeful, feeling a little comfy – even when some of the subject matter is a little, maybe, upsetting or a little confronting. A little uncomfortably nostalgic at certain times. I hope that people walk away feeling kind of uplifted and joyful. 

Iris: I think I'm just excited for them to see a story that so much hard work went into making. I hope they see how much we all cared about these characters, how much work we put into it, and how much everybody loved being a part of it. And I hope everybody feels that too and sees the shifts between humor and darkness.

Michelle: Through watching this film, I hope our audience remembers what it was like to move from a space of unknowing to a space of knowing, and how exciting and thrilling, and honestly, sometimes scary it can feel to discover who you are. It reminded me of the great fun you have when you're young, as well as the great tumult that comes with learning more about yourself. When they’re seated for the film, I hope they think, “damn, that's a great outfit,” but when they return home from the theater, I want them to recognize these moments of grace for themselves. Knowing that it’s messy and chaotic trying to figure out who you are when you’re young and surrounded by a high-pressure environment, but ultimately, all those choices bring you a little closer to understanding who you are on the inside and actually getting to know who you want to become.

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As I look back on that vibrant, dizzying August of our Magazine summer, I am left with such a warmth for these three women, whose perspectives and stories I am so honored to give a home to here.

Thank you, Lily, Iris, and Michelle, for gifting us your words and your time. 

Magazine will be premiering at the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) on September 11th. www.tiff.net/films/magazine