All That Jazz for Galen Hopper by Maddie Schumacher

She’ll tell you about a forgotten actress from fifty years ago in her ruby red Repetto slippers. Your attention is held. 

Galen Hopper embodies the word cool from the moment you meet her. I met Galen some years ago and was immediately struck by her effortless IT factor. 

My bias is that I still think she's really cool. 

Even after all this time. 

Galen is striking. Beautiful, yes. Interesting, yes. Articulate, yes. An actress and a writer, Galen understands the weight of each artistic moment. 

There's a quiet antiquity to her spirit. Her brain holds a museum of cultural artifacts. In my time with Galen, I have always learned something new. Something no one else knows. 

The youngest daughter of the late Dennis Hopper. Perhaps this taste was genetically predetermined.

So when I spoke to Galen about the prospects of talking about her favorite movie, it was no surprise that Galen already had an answer to the question long before it came out of my mouth. It slipped out of her with an urgency to say Bob Fosse’s All That Jazz.

You should know this moment doesn't usually work so quickly. But Galen was sure. She needed no convincing. Her love for the film was evident in her body language alone. 

At Cold Worm Column, we’re talking about our favorite people's favorite movies. Galen is one of my favorite people’s, favorite people (shoutout Isa Barrett). By the transitive property, she's becoming a favorite of mine, too. I feel lucky. 

We sat down in my Broome Street apartment and gabbed on April 22nd (purposefully once retrograde had passed). 

Some of this conversation is abbreviated for clarity

Maddie: Period.

Galen: Period.

Maddie: How old were you the first time you watched All That Jazz? What was it like for you watching it for the very first time? 

Galen: I watched All That Jazz for the first time when I was, I think, 17. I was in LA, really bored, doing this acting program, and all my friends were away, and I'd just seen Star 80 -

which is an incredible movie. I love that movie so much. And I was like, "Whoa, I need more of this-" Right away. And I watched it (All That Jazz) on my laptop, and I didn't even have any words. I was like, this is everything that I love in one movie.

There's so much to unpack. I mean, the dancing, the humor, the death, the love. It's such a beautiful piece, and I remember thinking it blew my mind at 17. 

Maddie: When you watched it, were you immediately like, "this is my favorite movie," or because you've watched it so much, it's over time become your favorite movie?

Galen: I think I knew right away.

Maddie: Immediately.. 

Galen: Immediately. 

Maddie: It is such a big movie that way.

Galen: It's a total spectacle. It's an epic. It's literally like a, a Western epic- ... but of, you know, the show business.

Maddie: Describe the movie in three words.

Galen: Oh. “Sensual.” “Disgusting.” And “raw.”

Or “That's. Showbiz. Baby.” 

(*giggles from Maddie and Galen) 

Maddie: How would you pitch this movie to someone who's never seen it?

Galen: A tumultuous portrait of what it means to be an artist.

Maddie: Yass. What are some favorite scenes, favorite lines, anything that, like, sticks out to you immediately? 

Galen: Oh, my gosh. Well, my favorite scene- I have two favorite scenes. Actually, three. That might be cheating, though.

Maddie: No, go ahead.

Galen: I love the scene where Annie and Michelle do the dance for him (Joe). Because it just reminds me a lot of my childhood..always putting on performances for people. And then I love the scene where Annie is in his bed, and she calls the guy, and he goes, "How dare you call a guy that's not gay in my bed?"

Maddie: I LOVE that.

Galen: Because she does such a, like, reversal on him. Like, if you can't beat them, join them-

I just feel like she's so empowered by being with this really difficult man, knowing and accepting him, and doing what she needs to do to not get caught up in the messiness of that relationship. And then the third one is more emotional to me, but when Michelle sings to her dad, and she says, "Dad, I'll miss you," and she's smoking the cigarette, and she's, like, all dolled up- I just feel like that is very relatable to me.

Maddie: The intensity of the relationships really struck me when watching. I'm curious about your take on how the film depicts jealousy in relationships. Do we understand the double standard that Joe is allowed to be possessive, yet his women aren't? What's your take on that? I'm curious: as you've gotten older and watched the movie, have you changed your opinion?

Galen: Yeah, I watched it yesterday at school, and I was thinking a lot about the dynamics he has with the women in his life. And I think the first time I watched it, it probably passed me by. This is who he is. This is a portrait of a very flawed person. But this time, I realized how self-aware Bob Fosse was about how much of a womanizer the character is (maybe Fosse, too), and how poorly he treats the women in his life. But I honestly think that the women in this movie are all so empowered. His ex-wife is always laughing at him, and they have a good relationship. There is no real hate. Like, you can tell it's this circle of love where jealousy exists, but the women are empowered by their jealousy.

..Annie is, you know, seeing other men; she knows what he's doing, but she's doing it herself, and I think that it really struck me that there was not a lot of anger. There's this air of acceptance that I think is really cool and truthful. 

Maddie: In this film, it's very much just like, "You know who I am. And you're accepting of it. And I didn't ask you to be accepting of it.” Even if he gets annoyed by her being on the phone, with a man who isn't gay in his bed- ... he is also, like, slightly turned on by the fact that she could play that game, too.

Galen: Yeah. I think it's just this Bohemian lifestyle.  I was listening to this artist lecture about Lucian Freud. And, you know, he was such a womanizer, and he could never be a monogamist. And it's always very interesting to me to hear about how artists live, and, you know, it's sometimes uncouth. But I do think that what I like about the way they portrayed Joe as a cheater in this movie is that the women aren't portrayed as victims.

Maddie: 100%.

Galen: The women all want their own things. They all have their own ambitions, and I think the way the women are written in this movie is really brilliant.

Especially, I love Victoria, the girl who wants to be a star.

Maddie: So good.

Galen: She is so good. And it's just that they're all so fleshed out. Yeah, they do circle around him because I think when there is a star, their energy is infectious.

Maddie: The whole thing with his ex-wife fighting with him because he's like, "You can't play someone who's 24." She's like, "Well, watch me, 'cause I'm gonna do it, and you're gonna love it."

Galen: I love that scene because she plays it with such humor. She finds the whole situation so humorous, and I think that that is just brilliant.

Maddie: What do you think your relationship is with Joe? Like, are we supposed to love him? Are we trying to understand him? 'Cause I could see a lot of people having very different perspectives on him as a protagonist, and, like, I'm very biased, 'cause I happen to really like him, and I imagine you do, too, but, like, is that complicated for you? He's nuanced. He's not a perfect character by any means.

Galen: I think I've always been attracted to flawed characters. I've always loved transgressive fiction and unreliable narrators because I just love the psychology behind them. And I think it's so human to follow this person who is so messy and fucked up, and I think you're supposed to feel complicated about it. I don't think you're supposed to feel any which way. I think it's just a truthful portrayal of a man who wants to be an artist who can only really communicate through his art. Because, honestly, most people drawn to making art... we're just people who wanna be loved. And the only way we know how to communicate is through dance, writing, music…. And so I mean, I love him because he just reminds me of every messed-up artist in my family and around me, and I just, yeah, I think it's a great depiction of that type of person.

Maddie:  It's all right there right away. So I couldn't imagine being bored, but I could imagine- there are plenty of women who will have a negative reaction to him. But I also think oftentimes that's connected to something much deeper. You may hate him because he reminds you of someone you have a complicated relationship with. That's fine, but that's literally what a movie's supposed to do.

Galen: I think it's good when a movie gets a really strong reaction either way. If someone felt nothing, that would be a problem. But if someone watches this movie and hates it, that's great.

If they love it, that's great.

Maddie: I wonder, because you're an actress and you're an artist, what does this movie mean to you in terms of the entertainment industry? Is it a movie about ambition, a movie about self-destruction, or both? Can you have one without the other? 

Galen: I think it is both. I think the idea of what an artist is was instilled in me really, really young.

And there's this book called Letters to a Young Poet by Rainer Maria Rilke, and I started having it read to me when I was like three

Maddie: Wow. 

Galen: There's this quote that's like, "If you go into yourself in the middle of the night and you ask yourself, 'Would I die, would I die if I were to be forbidden to write? And if you say yes, then commit your whole life to that, and commit fully. And if you say no, do anything else because you'll have a great life."

I think it's just very true that you really have to have this need, that you need to create. And I think I definitely feel that way, and I think it is self-destruction in a way, but that's the beauty-

because then you have the self-destruction, and you express it through your art. And there's so much disappointment, but you can use it all. And I think it's a hard business, but I wouldn't trade it for anything because making art is awesome.

Maddie: The hard part of it is what makes it so attractive. My dad always says, "If it were easy, everyone would fucking do it."

Galen: Yeah, absolutely 

Maddie: And that's the point. There are tons of people who would watch this movie and be like, "He's in so much pain. This is so much," but not everyone craves this. 

But unfortunately, we have to do it. (i.e., be artists)

Galen: (sigh) We have to.

Maddie: I'm obsessed with Jessica Lange in this movie. Talk to me about her. Who is she? 

Galen: She is the Angel of Death. But I think she's also like his way of sort of glamorizing his struggle. I think she is a good foil and narrator for him, helping him express his inner thoughts. When they cut to her during a moment of turmoil in his life, or to him disappointing someone, or to him taking drugs, I think it's his way of explaining why he does the things he does to make himself feel better.

Maddie: I feel like she's like the judge. 

Galen: There's a phrase about addiction. “You're the piece of shit at the center of the universe.” 

I think that's sort of his internal monologue. I think that's his way of explaining it, and I think that Lange is just so brilliant in this movie because she does so much with her stillness. If you think about the way that she's perceiving him, she's like, "I get why girls would be in love with you," Like, it's his ego. She is his ego but also his judge.

Maddie: Talk to me about musicals. Do you tend to like musical storytelling, or does Bob Fosse pull you in with this film specifically? 

Galen: I love musicals. I love Rent. I love Spring Awakening. I love Little Shop of Horrors.

I definitely grew up with them.  There was a community theater group that my friend Iris and I used to do.. Iris was interviewed…

Maddie: Shout out Iris. 

Galen: It was ridiculous. And we were all committing so hard at five years old. But unfortunately, I can't really sing.

Maddie: Same

Galen: I love to dance.. I think that movement is really powerful. The way one tells a story through singing and dancing has always been so admirable to me.. 

Maddie: Do you think that this is a must-watch for someone who wants to be in the business?

Galen: I think yes. I think it's beautiful. I think it's a beautiful portrayal of the art world as a whole. Warts and all. It's beautiful because there is the struggle of it and the destruction, but the collective energy is infectious, like that first scene where they're all dancing (auditioning) and then the producers are in the back, and then his ex-wife and his daughter..  the energy of it, you can really feel it. It's palpable..And the scene with Victoria where she's really trying to get the steps right, and then Joe finally tells her she did a good job, and she's just crying. It's the hard work that goes into it that really pays off.

I think anyone who wants to be an actor should definitely watch it.

Maddie: I wanna talk about the ending. I'm curious about your reaction the first time you watched vs now? The Goodbye-Life number !! I didn't think that he was gonna die.… Does it still hold up to you?.

Galen: I think the first time I saw the scene, it was very impactful to me.

This artist, who is thinking of his death in this beautiful sort of glamorized way. And now, I watched it yesterday, and it's so much about reckoning with legacy and what you're gonna leave behind. And I think there's this big idea of an artist who wants to cheat death through immortalizing himself through his art. You think you're indestructible. And every artist, I think, thinks about their legacy…And now, I'm like, oh, but it's also him coming to terms with the fact that his legacy is actually his history through his family and the people who have inspired him. And reckoning with the fact that because he ignored his illness and his addiction for his art, he now has to deal with the trail he's gonna leave behind with his ex-wife, his daughter, and his girlfriend.

And I think it's such, it's such a memento mori to me.

Maddie: Agreed.

Galen: Like, we're living life, in the words of Fiona Apple, "Tell that girl you don't love her, and if you do, tell her twice." Life is short, and I think it's all about him grappling with the fact that death happens to all of us.

Maddie: Absolutely. In youth, we think someone like that isn't gonna die, and then they do die, right? So that's, like, obviously very striking.... It's interesting watching that last scene where it's everyone's dancing, and they're singing, and it's like this musical number, and it's beautiful, and it's exactly who, like, Bob Fosse was. 

... But also, like, the focus of seeing his ex-wife in the audience and his daughter. It's like, well, that was just as important. His daughter is gonna think about him when he's gone - not the musical.

Galen: Yes. yes 

Maddie: I was also very blown away by the daughter smoking the cigarette and being all done up because it's a mix of all the women that he's known and interacted with throughout the whole film. So it's very, very impactful to see her like that. Obviously, it elicits, like, a real reaction from the audience. So, how do you feel about their father-daughter relationship throughout the film?

Galen: I mean, I think it reminds me a lot of my dad and me. The whole movie does, honestly.

And I'm like, "Oh, God, Freud, Jesus Christ." I'm watching it yesterday, and I'm like, "Oh, God, of course this is my favorite movie."

Maddie:  Yes.

Galen: I think when you have an artist parent, you are exposed to art in a way that maybe is not normal. Like, my dad would sit down with me, and make me watch the Academy screeners, and pick the one I thought was my favorite. It's not a typical thing. But it's very relatable to me, that line that she has, "That was my first R-rated movie."

And I think that when you're around art and a lot of artists, you pick up on things. Because you wanna be close to it, you wanna be close to these interesting people-

... so you do a lot of eavesdropping, and you kind of feel like a little adult in a way.

But I think his relationship with his daughter is really beautiful because they have such a tender connection. It reminds me of my dad and our connection, and yeah, it's really powerful.

Maddie:  I think that a lot of movies do this stereotype now, where it's like the star father and him being somewhat absent, and this film, which, especially in 1979, I think was, like, a huge deal, was that it- it's not that he's absent. It's that he's in and out of being present, but he's there, and he's connecting with her. And he loves her.  I think that's actually the thing that keeps audiences with him is that, like, he's a really good fucking dad.

So that leads me to, like, do you think there are moments in this film that don't hold up now? Would this man be canceled now?

Galen: I mean, the whole, like, sleeping with the dancers in your theater company thing is, like, a lot.

(Maddie and Galen nod)

But what's really cool about this movie is it’s almost like Bob Fosse's apology.  He completely puts his ego aside by exploring himself and his relationships with others in his death. I think he is very upfront about his negative qualities..

I mean, even in dance numbers.

Maddie: Are you drawn to this form of autobiographical storytelling? 

Galen: I like it, but I'm not necessarily drawn to it. I just like character portraits a lot.

I think that Bob Fosse just did it perfectly. It's hard to do it successfully and walk the line well where it's not masturbatory.

Maddie: Yeah. YEAH. 

Galen: To put it plainly.

Maddie: I think it's hard. It's easy to celebrate other people's mess, and it's very hard to celebrate your own. You know?

Galen: Art is inherently about embarrassing yourself and laying it all down. And I mean, I definitely love hearing artists talk or seeing portraits that a painter painted of themselves. It's always interesting to see how someone thinks of themselves…It's hard to fully analyze yourself, and that's why we're probably better at, you know, giving other people advice than taking it. 

Maddie: Hell yeah… 

Galen:  But I think that, that learning about these larger-than-life personalities that are actually deeply, deeply flawed at their core is very, very helpful, because when we see someone who's so prolific, we think, "Oh, no, they're probably not feeling any of the feelings that I have in a given day, when I feel sad, or I'm feeling lazy or hedonistic." I think this movie does a really great job of showing people and making them feel less alone, and I've always been very drawn to that. I've read every book about Marilyn Monroe that there possibly is, because it's special to know that someone who you really look up to goes through all the same things that you do and feels all the same weird emotions, and has all the same the fuck-ups. 

Maddie: You're trying to understand them in addition to being captivated by them. 

Galen: Completely. 

Galen, ILY. Thank you….